Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.
For now, the functionality is available in an add-on. Yes it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.
Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if you aren't sure.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
I didn't say you said that. You said and this
is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting
when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA
UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't
be definitely determined. I don't know what JAWS does or System Access,
nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and
pasted. But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste
announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are
done, which is incorrect. I'm saying that some how, when this was being
considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in
the Github (spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case
from an e-mail sent announcement. In the e-mail case, you get an
indication from the program whether the message was sent. When you copy,
there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so. Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur. Suppose you are
copying or moving files. You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected
files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more
files. You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.
Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over
again. You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy
the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them
again. The same thing could happen with text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and
know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked. I
have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and
I had to execute the command twice. Before the add-on, I had
inconveniences such as I described above now and then. They could have
been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste
announcement were built into NVDA. I consider this an important function
and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but
if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on works
well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is
that it is accurate. I'm saying that the premise on which the function was
rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when
copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on
does do an excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being able to
tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether
something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the
program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how
much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it,
could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core. My
understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same
assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it
has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction
to send it, and there's no error message. Theoretically, NVDA could be
made to give the user a message that the email had been sent. You are
right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my
point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with
the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them
how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask
"did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users,
vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's
the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to
understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they
behave. Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to
make computers more novice friendly. Is the current system perfect?
Probably not. Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving
documents. Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write
some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the
changes. Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply
close. Which way is correct? You could argue either way - and in
fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your
document has been saved. But you can infer it by reading the title bar
(for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents
getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save
when you try to close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and
you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or
forwarded a message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the program
opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.
Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that
isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for. Also,
learning how to derive information from context and behavior is
important. You won't always have someone explaining everything in every
program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted
people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a
case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful
and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that
it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact. JAWS knows
when, and System Access knows when. I have specifically seen instances
when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made. I don't
know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it
has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when
copying and pasting takes place. The person who wrote the add-on
believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily
since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this
can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left
to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears
and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA
does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case
NVDA reports "control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of
the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited. This
disappears when the document is saved. NVDA does read this asterisk when
reading the title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled,
nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command
keys is on to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the document is
saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not
enabled, the visual response is again subtle. When you open a document,
or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you change it,
the "Saved" disappears. This gets reinstated when you save it.
There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing
the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is
saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be
sure a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of the
functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people
often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients
don't give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful
functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the
ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing
are checked by default. So people should hear this message in
general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
It should be spoken and if it isn't without
changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem
using NVDA in Windows 10. The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when
in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to
save which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make
sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc
and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation
to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then
use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object
navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as
I know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by
the developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed. it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text
editor to know if a document was saved. It is just saying the
word. That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things
because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain
key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about
almost nothing. As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it
is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved. And
to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and
relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all
it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when
you pressed that combination. But that shows how reliably your
documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s
command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another
thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory
and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue
editing the document.
Listening for His
shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa
DOS
-- ![Image NVDA
certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
